This interview has been edited for length and clarity. 

Welcome, Thomas. Tell us about “The Interface.”

Thomas Germain: There’s a really strong argument to be made that every single story, every single part of your life, is a technology story. But as consumers, as people cruising around the internet just living our lives, we only see what comes out of the pipes, right? We see “the interface,” where companies are letting us interact with them. And what we’re trying to do on this show is reach behind the curtain and go in-depth about what’s really happening, how it affects you, and why it matters in your day-to-day life.

Our goal is to be a guide for the average person. Maybe even people who hate technology and are tired of hearing about it. We are here to tell you what really matters, and give you the tools and the information you need to live as an informed member of society who wants to understand how the world works, and what it’s going to mean as things are changing so rapidly in this future being built by these giant tech corporations.

Will you have guests? What can you share about the setup? 

Right now, the plan is no guests, no jargon. It’s a roundtable discussion. Every week, the three of us are going to bring a different story, something we’ve been reporting on for years or something that just [recently] caught our attention that we’ve gotten obsessed with. Each person brings a story, tells you “here’s the big picture stuff,” and then we break down and discuss all the different interesting questions. Sometimes we get into fights, and we argue. A really light and funny tone is what we’re going for — like you’re meeting up with three friends at a bar who all work on this one thing, and you’re listening to them. We’re presenting this in a way I think is really easily digestible. 

 Can you share a glimpse of any specific stories you have coming up?

 For example, TikTok just got sold to a consortium of American companies, many of which have direct ties to the Trump administration. And this weird political business regulatory issue has now come down to something that affects what information you’ll have access to. What videos will and won’t be promoted; how the TikTok algorithm works; these are open questions.

A lot of people are really worried about censorship. Are we going to be able to express ourselves on this platform that has become, like, the black hole at the center of the internet that all digital culture revolves around?

We’re going to be talking about things like how dating apps manipulate their users, and how the conflicting goals between dating app companies’ desire to find you a date and desire to make you a paying customer factor into your romantic life. And how, in a real way, these giant corporations have algorithms that determine who you are and aren’t allowed to meet. 

Then we’ll go into smaller or more personal things. There was a great article recently in The Cut about ‘friction-maxxing,’ which is a term I really like — the idea that technology is making our lives too smooth and too easy, and we’re losing touch with the outside world and our humanity. So we’re exploring how it affects your mental health and your day-to-day, and what you can do to take back control. 

So it’s a nice mix: news, personal, current events, investigations, how stuff works, how it matters to you, covering the whole gamut.

In the podcasting world, one of the biggest challenges — like it is everywhere in journalism — is discoverability, right? With social media, everybody’s choosing their own adventure about what platform and what area to give their personal information to, and hoping that the upsides outweigh the downsides. As both an extreme subject-matter expert and somebody launching a new show, how are you thinking about getting the word out there?

The level of influence these giant tech platforms have on who gets to see or hear about what is hard to overstate. There’s this constant dance between people putting content on platforms like YouTube or Apple Podcasts, and these companies’ goals and what pleases their algorithms. And then also the tension between that and what audiences respond to. 

I personally am going to be pushing really hard on social media. I’ve got a big following on TikTok. I’m going to be making short-form videos that are about the subjects that we’re talking about, kind of a tie-in to the podcast. The show is being hosted on YouTube, as well as on our website. 

We’re going to be clipping the show up, too, the way a lot of podcasts are now. So we’ll have these bite-sized passages from the show — me, Karen, and Nicky talking to each other — that will stand on their own. 

In this current era of technology, where the tech platforms have so much power, you’ve got to take this multi-pronged assault and be ready and willing to adapt and shift. 

It really forces you to be nimble. Which is ironic, because that’s the sort of thing that we’re going to be talking about on the podcast itself. 

One of the biggest stories to hit podcasting last year was the announcement of Inception Point AI, the all-generative AI podcast network building AI-powered personalities. To unfairly put you on the spot, any thoughts for the audience about the promise of something like that?

 This is a really interesting moment to be a podcaster, or really anyone who produces information (I hate the word “content”). If you’re a creative person who’s putting stuff on the internet, there’s this weird new element of AI-produced material that’s complicating everything. And we’ve seen a bunch of companies and startups that are publishing — I forget the exact numbers — but it’s like a thousand podcasts a day or something. They set up the parameters, and they tell the AI, “OK, these are what the two hosts are like.” And then they have them make a show. Or Google has a tool where you can upload a bunch of PDFs or other information, and it’ll make a podcast for you to listen to. Also, for what it’s worth, Meta and OpenAI have launched these AI-only social-media video platforms. Like, Meta says that’s Mark Zuckerberg’s vision of the future: AI social media. 

I think there’s a lot of fear about this, and for good reason, right? Even like two or three years ago, there were already too many podcasts, right? There’s just way too much material. Everyone has their own show. And we’re all kind of fighting for breadcrumbs in terms of people’s attention. And, just more broadly in the industry, [there is a] tiny pool of advertising revenue that’s available. 

I think my real question is, do people actually want this content? In some cases, they do. It depends on what you’re trying to get from a podcast. If you just need something to pass the time, you don’t really care so much about the material. I think a lot of people might be very happy with an AI-generated podcast or just pulling up the voice feature on GPT or Gemini and asking it questions and having it tell you a long story. 

But I also really believe that journalism, the particular corner of the podcasting industry that I’m in, is a high-wire act. It’s not just that I’m giving you great information. I’m going to get in trouble if I’m wrong. There’s an accountability system that’s built in here, and I have to take it really seriously. Whereas if the AI gets it wrong, well, nobody’s in trouble. The company that made the AI, it’s not their fault. The company that’s using the AI, apparently it’s not their fault. 

I think part of what people want is feeling as though they’re getting the product of human endeavors and human output. Now, I could be completely wrong about that. But I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that [the amount of content produced by AI] will disrupt the media business.

There are a lot of things that worry me about AI. That one, I’m not sure. A lot of those companies, it feels like it’s more pitching an idea to investors about the products we can make than pitching it to consumers and listeners and audiences.

Is there a tech story that gives you hope right now? 

God, that’s a good question. A tech story that gives me hope. [pause] God, that should be easier to answer. [takes a moment]

This isn’t necessarily a tech story, but it’s a tension between the tech companies and the people who make and consume the content on their platforms. Companies like Google, Meta, and TikTok, in particular, companies that are delivery systems for media, have enormous power. And over the past 20 years, the [amount of] money available to people who create media of all different forms has been shrinking as tech companies take more and more of it. And there are a lot of reasons to be alarmed about that. 

But as AI in particular is taking over, I think what we’re going to learn is these companies need content creators more than the companies might realize, more than the public thinks, and probably more than investors are being told.

Ultimately, Google, Gemini, Chat GPT — they need fresh, new information. Right now, no matter what tech companies tell you, AI cannot produce that original information. They can’t go out and find new facts. Maybe that will change; we’re not there yet. So one of the things that gives me hope is that we’ve been seeing the digital economy kind of collapsing as the big platforms suck up more of the money and more of the energy. 

But ultimately, what I really believe is going to happen is we’re going to enter a new paradigm, an entirely new system. In New York, for example, there are three or four independent worker-owned local news startups, and they’re all doing really, really well. Hell Gate is my personal favorite. They don’t have a huge audience, but they don’t need to. They need a relatively dedicated amount of people who are willing to give them a little bit of money [so] that they can keep doing their work. 

I think you also look at the rise of newsletters and Substack — that’s a tech platform, Substack — but people are making their own living independently on there.

There’s this constant tension between the tech companies trying to be the one monopoly, the only company in the world. But I’m seeing all these places where people are carving out a niche and finding ways to connect directly with the audience, whether it’s Patreon, whether it’s [the newsletter platform] Ghost. I think there are a lot of signs that we’re moving in a new direction where the companies producing media are smaller, and there are more of them. And maybe that is actually a really good thing that will leave us in a place where journalism and news, but also media in general, might be even better off in some ways than they were in the past. 

That’s not to be a Pollyanna; I don’t think everything’s going to be great and there aren’t going to be any problems, and the tech companies aren’t going to mess things up and do different forms of censorship and content moderation and take more of the money. But I think there are also a lot of reasons to be hopeful.

“The Interface” debuts Thursday, Feb. 12, on BBC.com/Audio, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts.